Casual Breeding: READ THIS before asking quest. re: breeding

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Casual Breeding: READ THIS before asking quest. re: breeding

Postby hbmousery on Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:22 pm

This issue has come up repeatedly in the forum recently, and I'm not sure whether this is due to many casual breeders finding this forum, or simply that more people than ever are considering breeding than before.

Diane wrote a great post about things to think about before you start a mousery, and I'm afraid that many of the people this post is aimed at have either not read it, glossed over it, or simply posted their agreement without really paying attention to it being relevant to them.

The result is that many established breeders are getting incredibly frustrated. At first, we were very gentle with the people who put no thought into breeding.

"I have a buck and a doe - they can have babies!" <-- them

"Well that might not be a good idea - there are a lot of mice in the world without homes. What would yours add?" or "Are you prepared for the possibility of a lot of babies? What will you do with them?" <-- us

We got ignored. These people bred anyway, and brought babies into the world they were not prepared to take care of, find homes for, and babies they could not properly socialize - babies who were doomed to become feeders for no other reason than that no one wanted them, rather than being bred humanely for such a purpose - babies who would not receive vet attention when needed. Not to mention the stress on the mothers who wouldn't get the diet they needed to do this without killing themselves, or the mothers left with the fathers to then get a pregnant right after giving birth. Not to mention the poor does who hurt themselves during labor because they aren't built correctly, or those who died during labor.

We tried being rougher.

"Don't you think my girl is going to have such cute babies from my boy???" <-- them

"You shouldn't do that - you don't know the background of your mice. They might be unhealthy, and they aren't going to improve the species." <-- us

The same thing happened. The responses were "But my mouse has a great personality so of course she should be bred!" Every mouse should have a great personality, or they wouldn't be pets. Stock that should be bred should have good conformation - good colouration - good markings - and, invaluably, good health history. If you don't know what these mean or can't explain what a good example would be, you need to research more.

And then they bred anyway. These mice went to pet shops because parents get upset. These mice are sometimes let go - into the wild, where they are not equipped to survive. The "breeder" lost interest and stopped paying attention and suddenly had dozens upon dozens of mice because the litter wasn't seperated in time, and all the girls got pregnant.

So now we're here.

"I can't wait to breed my mice!" <-- them

"You should NOT breed unless you know X!" "Why would you breed that mouse? What do you know about it?" "That's a BAD idea because you're doing Y." <-- us

You see it as rude. But you know what?

It works. If you don't know enough to research and answer basic questions, and you don't have a reason for breeding beyond "I want babies," "My mouse is nice," "I have two mice," "I want more mice," "My mouse is pretty - I've never seen an brown/black mouse before!" - you should not be breeding! And when we tell people it's a bad idea without sugar coating it?

They don't breed.

You see it as rude. We see all the mice you might bring into the world because "why not."


So this is my charge to you, potential breeder: Don't, unless you have done a lot of research, and *KNOW* you're stock is good. (Usually, this means you need to get it from a breeder.) Don't, unless you know when to seperate your male from your female. Don't, unless you know when to seperate your boy babies from mom & the girl babies. Don't, unless you have a basic understanding of MOUSE genetics. Don't, unless you know what to do with the potential 16 babies. Don't, unless everyone who lives with you is okay with it - after explaining how many mice will be born at a time, and how expensive it will be. Don't, unless you have a basic grasp of animal husbandry.

These are all prerequisites to breeding, and are not optional. If you research and ask intelligent questions before breeding - before even thinking about putting a buck with a doe - then like Ash, Jaye, Diane, Kat, Kelli, Brenda, and myself - you will be welcomed with open arms.

But otherwise? If you want to take our bluntness as rudeness because you haven't done your homework?

We have teeth, and your disregard for the animals you want to perpetuate scares us. And casual breeding, or breeding just because, is not okay. In any species, "even" mice.
Last edited by hbmousery on Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Straw on Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:56 pm

Thank you for posting this. I only hope it is payed attention to.
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Postby MaxMouse on Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:13 pm

I will DEFINATELY want to do more research but I am having trouble finding reliable sites to learn things like genetics. Any good suggestions? Also how do you remember the genetic names like "Ay" so good? :) Great Post by the way.
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Postby 1dog3cats17rodents on Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:59 pm

:agree: (with all posts) However I really agree with Maxmouse17. Until I'm through college, financially stable, and live near some excellent breeders I would never breed, but I'd really love to learn some basic genetics now. Any body got some good sites for me to learn?? :?:
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Postby minty_miffy10 on Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:06 pm

Go to the genetics bit on this forum and then go to "Varieties" in that post there is a link to Barb's site about varieties. Hope it helps :D



Great post. I hope people don't just go through it and say "whatever"because
basically the people this is aimed at just don't read it! Annoying. :mad:
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Postby 1dog3cats17rodents on Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:17 pm

Thanks, this helped quite abit :D

I can't wait untill Barbara finishes wth the extra, (looks like this [?]) on EVERYTHING. Three years later, ans she finishes :lol: That must take forever
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Postby barbarafunmouse on Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:01 pm

the genetics stuff does take a while to write them all. There are other good sites out there tho. They don't have it laid out there like I do, but they have other great stuff!! If you got to my Links page, then scroll down to varieties and genetics, there's many great links in there that will help you with genetics!


What Heather said about "my mice have good personalities so I'm going to breed them" <--them; made me think of something I wrote up about spaying and neutering cats/dogs...

Now, remember, this was written for dogs, not mice. but the same applies to mice...

MYTH: I want my pets to have babies because they have great qualities and I want them to pass it on.
FACT: There is no guarantee that the babies will get the good qualities of the parents. Also, take in to count that they could inherit the bad qualities! For instance, most gray hounds bred for racing do not make it on to the track because the do NOT inherit the good qualities of the parents. Most of these dogs end up in animal shelters or they get put down.
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Postby 1dog3cats17rodents on Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:43 pm

There are other good sites out there tho.


I did go to other sites as well, after an hour of going to other sites my head is slightly fried

Thank you for posting this. I only hope it is payed attention to.


I agree, the ones who should pay attention are the ones who don't :(
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Postby reelwoman11 on Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:19 pm

then like Ash, Jaye, Diane, Kat, Kelli, Brenda, and myself

HEY! :evil:
What about me!

LOL, just kidding ;)
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Postby hbmousery on Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:20 pm

reelwoman11 wrote:
then like Ash, Jaye, Diane, Kat, Kelli, Brenda, and myself

HEY! :evil:
What about me!

LOL, just kidding ;)


:edit:

then like Ash, Jaye, Diane, Tamaira, Kat, Kelli, Brenda, and myself


I wasn't trying to list everybody lol!
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Postby summermommy2004 on Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:21 pm

:clap:
==========
Jen aka. Assassin #2 :suspicious:

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http://www.thediamondpatch.com
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Postby Pharfly on Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:25 pm

Thank you for posting this! I just wish it could be posted on every type of pet forum. Just look how many hybrid dogs are out there now, 3 years ago we called them mutts! I have first hand experince on what really happens to "unwanted" pets. It's not fun pinning down a beautiful animal so the vet can put a needle into it's forearm and kill it. Then put the lifeless body into a garbage bag and drive it to the local dump. In shelters across North America 80% of animals are euthinized simply because there are not enough homes for them! Spaying and nuetering saves lives!
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Postby reelwoman11 on Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:37 am

I wasn't trying to list everybody lol!


LOL I know...I just haven't razzed anyone in awhile. ;)
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Postby nuedaimice on Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:46 am

It's not fun pinning down a beautiful animal so the vet can put a needle into it's forearm and kill it.


And, unfortunately, for unwanted mice its not nearly as humane or sugar-coated. Even euthing a mouse requires the needle to be inserted directly into the heart.

However, when these unwanted babies are dumped at the pet store, its not euthanization they face, its death at the jaws of a hungry snake. I'm not trying to get into feeders, because I agree that snakes need to eat too. However, as far as humane treatment goes, live feeders suffer a lot of stress right before death. And sometimes the snake is the least of the mouse's worries. I worry more about mice being sold to children as pets, to either a) be starved, dehydrated, squished, or otherwise neglected to death or b) go to people like the ones posted about who breed them needlessly and then continue to contribute to the problem.

There are literally billions of mice in this world, and they die by the millions EVERY day. Between wild, feeder, labaratory, and hobby bred mice - there is NO reason for anyone to NEED to breed mice. :| They are certainly not going to go extinct if you don't put YOUR mice together. In fact, if you don't put your mice together, you might even convince a few people that you DO have self-control and don't HAVE to breed needlessly.
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Postby Annie742 on Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:05 am

This is one of the best post "EVER!"

Please don't breed. I love animals too. Oh and the babies are just too cute. But do I want to raise them? No.

I leave it up to the people like those on this board to raise beautiful and healthy pets for me.

I know nothing about breeding mice. I have no intention of breeding. (In fact I all the pet I do have are all altered so there won't be even an accident!) But I do like reading about it on this board :)
I find it very intresting.

I know some would like to breed these or some other animal. But it's a lot of work and very time consuming for these breeders.
If your thinking about raising mice or any other pet to make a profit, forget it.
Between the vet bills and feed and the time it takes to care for these animals your going to be out of luck.
They know their animals. I do happen to know this, my family raised rabbits when I was a kid. LOT OF WORK!!!

So please leave it to the pros :)
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